| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 88 post(s) |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
0
   |
Posted - 2012.10.13 10:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to start by saying that I like the idea of these changes very much.
They put more information "in the world" rather than in a spreadsheet.
I realise that a lot of peaople are "asking which is sheild" but that doesn't seem to me to be much of an issue
as you can easily work that out once you start shooting stuff and as long as it's standardised as
sheild armour hull (going around clockwise starting from 12 o'clock) then once learned it's very intuitive and
easy. (you can put in togglable tool tips/lables for noobs if needed)
One thing I do note, for those that are colour blind switching the colour from yellow to red might not actually be
helpfull. I would recomend also changing the shape as well as colour (basically make sure everything works
in black and white and I think you should be ok).
However for those with colour vision...
As shown you have white targetting elements (the rotating chevrons ect) which I think could be colour coded
according to your overview settings so that they appear red or orange around hostiles and blue/green/purple
around allies/fleetmates. This would help enormously while doing logistics in combat and ensure you don't
accidentally rep the enemy and shoot your fleetmates.... Cos nobody has ever done that before...
Also on the subject of the UI/overview...
My beef with the overview is that it has to be far bigger than it needs to be to show all the info you need.
And in situations where there are more targets than you have screen hight for it becomes increadibly clunky to use.
My thought for improving it is this. (and this should be optional so you can stick with the old overview, atleast initially)
Use abreviations to condence multiple columns into one or two narrower ones. and allow for multiple sets so you can have
enemys and allies seperately next to each other.
It could look something liek this (with tags and symbols as well but I can't type them.
Hostile Column | | Allied column
Distance | velocity | angular | Target info | | Distance | velocity | angular | Target info
12.6km | 105m/s | 0.0023 | GAL-BSH-DOMI-IVY-{N00b} | | 5,274m | 3750m/s | 0.2573 | GAL-CRU-TRAX-EVIL-{Badie1}
15.7Km | 57m/s | 0.0004 | CAL-CRU-BLAK-IVY-{Stufee} | | 27.4Km | 54m/s | 0.0001 | MIN-BSH-MAEL-EVIL- {Badie2}
Now you can see the ships Race-Class-Type-Alliance/Corp-Name all in one collumn (with the ability to sort by any of the above in the options.) and you can have both allies and hostiles sorted however you like to allow you to both shoot the enemy and do logistics easily. (the target info column would be a bit like the mouse over ticker info currently, but condensed)
Of course this would require a standardised 3~4 letter abreviation set for all ships/objects in the game but that shouldn't be to difficult to sort out (most ships/classes have abreviations in common use anyway).
The item description of items could be updated to include their abreviations.
Which could also be used for searching for items, which would help with some of the more hard to spell ships. |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 11:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP karkur wrote:Bubanni wrote:
I think you guys are doing a good job with taking in feedback, like I am sure you will take in my 1 decimal in countdowns under 10 sec (9.9 and down)
Thank you  I'm taking it in but I might not do it  I think I actually changed the string so it only has 1 decimal and I think it's probably best to keep it that way for all times.... but we'll see
Just seconding/thirding the sentiment that this is a great idea (with a couple of tweaks ;-) ) and that your work is very much apreciated. |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 11:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Sisyphus wrote:As Karkur said - we're taking this stuff in, but that doesn't mean we're actually going to do it all.. (that would be very confusing.)
Please be nice, as unhappy Karkur makes everyone unhappy :(
But on the plus side, there are some real gold nuggets of feedback here! Which makes me feel like coming to you more often at the concept stage :)
One thought, And I don't know if this would be too much work to implement, But if there was a post at the top of the thread which you updated with a list of the ideas that you (collectively) thought were good that might be nice as we could see what suggestions made the grade as it were.
However I agree that niceness is the order of the day. |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 11:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Salpun wrote:When will the damage notification be movable  And the log be easier to read?
On the easier to read log front...
How about allowing seperate columns for incomming and outgoing damage as well as notifications.
That way you can easily sort out what damage you are doing and is being done to you. |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 12:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:This whole feature is an utter waste of development time.
Why alter the targeting UI at all?
You could have spent the time on things like, I dunno...the inventory UI abomination, thinking through and making changes to the broken moon goo mechanic....you know, trivial things like that.
But no, you have to create pretty baubles to distract the players from what is really wrong with the game.
There is no dislike button for me to press... but if there were i would currentlt be pressing it.
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Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 12:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP karkur wrote:Just a little update in case you are interested... yesterday there was a lot of discussion on my team about this project (I was sickish so I was working from home and missed it all) and it continued today. I've put the lock counter back, but will be removing the decimals (unless I find out that people find them VERY important). We talked a lot about the health bars and will most likely be making them counterclockwise and that it's obvious where the circle starts and ends. And the work just continues, we still have almost 2 months until we release (of course we can't update you on every step we take, but I just wanted to share this with you )
Any chance that the bars could optionally go clockwise or counterclockwise?
Clockwise makes much more sense to me, (whereas for others the opposite seems to apply).
Having the option to have it go around either way would allow both sets of people to be happy, and shouldn't (hopes) be
too hard to program. |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 13:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Oberine Noriepa wrote:MeBiatch wrote:A hard concept for newer players to figure out is transversal...
And even after you get a basic understanding of it you still have to manipulate your overview settings and stare at numbers to make sure you get max dps...
how about you have some sort of graphic for a target that when thier transversal is low it then displays graphic A (being the max dps graphic)
which would be an easy intuitive way to know that you should start shooting. During the Q&A part of the art presentation at Fanfest, someone suggested the implementation of a line tracing from your ship's turrets to your target that could change color to indicate ideal transversal velocities. Perhaps a line isn't the best mechanism to use here. Regardless, I think it would be great if the HUD used something that looks nice and is easy to read for such information. Less reliance on the overview menu is a good thing here.
However a very quick and simple update to the overview would be to colour angualr velocity readouts based on the percent damage reduction due to tracking.
So a target with an angular velocity which results in less than 10% reduction in damage would be green.
A target with an angualr velocity which results in more than 90% reduction in damage would be deep red.
Inbetween it would go from green to red (via yellow and orange) and objects with 0 tracking penulty they would be blue.
This requires no extra server load as it already tells the client the angualr velocity and your tracking speed.
You could do something similar with range for reductions due to falloff, and even sig radius.
Then you could imediately tell from the overview which ships are best to shoot at based on tracking speeds and range. |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 14:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Soden Rah wrote:Oberine Noriepa wrote:MeBiatch wrote:A hard concept for newer players to figure out is transversal...
And even after you get a basic understanding of it you still have to manipulate your overview settings and stare at numbers to make sure you get max dps...
how about you have some sort of graphic for a target that when thier transversal is low it then displays graphic A (being the max dps graphic)
which would be an easy intuitive way to know that you should start shooting. During the Q&A part of the art presentation at Fanfest, someone suggested the implementation of a line tracing from your ship's turrets to your target that could change color to indicate ideal transversal velocities. Perhaps a line isn't the best mechanism to use here. Regardless, I think it would be great if the HUD used something that looks nice and is easy to read for such information. Less reliance on the overview menu is a good thing here. However a very quick and simple update to the overview would be to colour angualr velocity readouts based on the percent damage reduction due to tracking. So a target with an angular velocity which results in less than 10% reduction in damage would be green. A target with an angualr velocity which results in more than 90% reduction in damage would be deep red. Inbetween it would go from green to red (via yellow and orange) and objects with 0 tracking penulty they would be blue. This requires no extra server load as it already tells the client the angualr velocity and your tracking speed. You could do something similar with range for reductions due to falloff, and even sig radius. Then you could imediately tell from the overview which ships are best to shoot at based on tracking speeds and range. while i do like the idea of a colour coded image... i am not sure having it in the overview would be optimal as CCP stated they want to move away from EVE Spreadsheets... so for me anything to get away from having the bulk of the screen being numbers...
True, but this is a minor tweak of a current feature that would be relatively quick and cheep to implement.
Wheras removing the overview for something better would be a massive undertaking that they are not about to do.
This wasn't supposed to be an ultimate best solution to the problem but a quick fix that would make what we currently have better.
|
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 00:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP karkur wrote:Myriad Blaze wrote:If it isn't GÇ£too muchGÇ¥ information with regard to PvP you might think about adding a numerical DPS meter for incoming damage (maybe instead of the flashing red circle). Just make an overlay over the ship pictures in the (old style) target icons. Outgoing DPS could be displayed near the bottom of the targeting bracket of the currently selected target.
Instead of using absolute sizes for shield, armour and structure bars in the circular targeting bracket you could use relative sizes (again, if that isn't GÇ£too muchGÇ¥ information). That way a ship with 1000 points in shield and 500 in armour and structure each would show a shield bar from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock, armour bar from 6 to 9 o'clock and structure from 9 to 12.
It would be nice to get information about the damage type of incoming damage. In case you think about the above mentioned DPS meter you might pre-set the value with the icon of the damage type dealt by that target (or in case of mixed damage types the type that represents the biggest portion of the damage).
I personally think that telling you exactly how much the other guy has in shield, armour and structure is giving too much info. I like the idea of show the damage type, but I don't know, maybe that's giving too much info? (we did actually discuss both these things at our meetings on Friday)
Would it (in your view) be giving too much info to colour the angular velocity / transversal/ ect in the overview based on the tracking speed of your turrets as outlined in this post post 679 page 34 so that you can tell at a glance which targets are going too fast for you to track? |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 02:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP karkur wrote:Soden Rah wrote:Would it (in your view) be giving too much info to colour the angular velocity / transversal/ ect in the overview based on the tracking speed of your turrets as outlined in this post post 679 page 34 so that you can tell at a glance which targets are going too fast for you to track? To be honest, I don't think I know enough about angular velocity to answer this, but I would be a bit scared of adding to the overview work by doing the calculation that you suggest for everything on the field (although I have not looked into it at all). We have talked about how cool it could be to let the rotation speed of the arrows that rotate around the active target be based on that, but we first want to get everything else solid.
Thanks for the reply 
Hmm.... Personally if you were going to do anything with the arrows around the active target (or targets generally) I would go with colouring them by standing (according to active overview settings) so that they appear green (say) around allies/fleetmates and red around enemies so that when you have a list of target icons jiggling around you can immediately see at a glance who is a friend you should be repping and who is an enemy you should be shooting.
Which too me at least would be far more useful information than transversal, although you could of course do both.
However the trouble with using the rotation speed of the arrows as an indication of transversal it doesn't give you the information I was after which was how much the angular speed of the target is effecting your ability to track which is a function of both the targets angular velocity and your current tracking speed.
It's hard atm to analyse the effect as you have to remember the current tracking speed of your turrets (in radians per sec) and compare it to the angular velocity of the target and both numbers can often be really small (as in disappearing off the number of decimal places you could managed to budget for angular velocity in your overview). and so you really just end up checking whether the angular velocity is the same order of magnitude as your tracking.
Perhaps if we could get tracking numbers in degrees per second as well as/instead of radians per second.
Then we might get tracking numbers not front loaded with so many decimal points and could make better guestimates of the tracking penalty. It's easier to see where you are if your guns can track 45 Deg/s and the target is doing 25 Deg/sec than trying to compare 0.000234 with 0.000213 (making the numbers up but you get the idea) particularly when you only have enough space for 4 decimal points.
However colouring the numbers would be clearer still, then you don't have to remember what your current tracking speed is (is your tracking computer on or off...) relative to target speed.
Or you could make the number a percentage of your guns tracking speed rather than an absolute value.
that's an even simpler calculation for the client to do.
Maybe if you did the colouring calculations only for targeted objects, which limits to a Max of, what? 12 items.
If adding 12 really basic calculations to the overview all done client side is going to break the overview then I suggest that the overview was already broken. 
Also if this is toggle-able then people with performance issues could turn it off, those running quad graphix card i7 rigs could have it turned on 
In this thread Thread In features and ideas I suggested an idea for condensing several columns of data you currently need/want in the overview into one more useful and informative one. I wonder if this might also reduce the processing overhead of the overview into the bargain and gain the extra needed to compensate for this idea? I would have thought that fewer columns would result in less cpu/gpu cycles. |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 12:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:While I agree that colors are the simplest way to indicate things, people need to remember they need to be able to graphically show it for colorblind people as well. That's why you're more likely to get arrows, and sweeping circles vs just color changes.
I fully agree that whatever system is implemented it should work for colour blind people (correct me if I am wrong but working in black and white should be the base test for this?).
However for those not colour blind. Colour is often not just the simplest but the fastest and most robust way way to indicate things.
The red is bad, green is good, system is incredibly useful and powerful.
So my view is that the system should be designed in the first instance to work in black and white.
And then coloured as well (possibly with an optional colour blind friendly colour pallet as well as I believe such things exist) so that everyone gets as much info as easily as possible.
For example I have suggested here that the white areas of the targeting icons could be coloured to show friend or foe status.
So you can more easily tell which of your targets are allies you want to rep and which are enemies you want to shoot.
However you could also do this by altering the shape of the icons.
For example when you look at the overview or ships in space it should distinguish between fleetmates/allies targeting you and hostiles doing the same.
This could be done by making hostiles targeting brackets look like Predator targeting triangles. And allies use the new proposed circles. Colours could be used on top of that. |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.15 13:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP karkur wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:1. Add a feature to the forums: View only dev posts in thread. Even a dedicated person like me gets tired of 30 or 50 pages of posts, most of them by ranting players (often double- or triple-posting). Most of us are not interested in other players' questions, we are interested in questions that have been answered: What we want to read is what the devs said, and the question they were responding to. If we could filter that out without scrolling through 50 pages to spot the blue badges, it would save us a lot of time and you some trouble!
Did you know that if you click on the blue DEV badge you will jump to the next dev post in the thread?
I for one did not know that. Thankyou for this. |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 12:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Atomic Option wrote:Point being I prefer to see rad/s rather than m/s since I'm used to it from Pyfa and the number of digits displayed is more consistent so I can set a less forgiving width for that column in the overview. But others may prefer m/s. Add both. There's room. Yes, I'll agree with you there: rad/s is generally a better measurement since it's the same unit as the towers themselves use to measure their tracking ability. Transversal (usually measured in m/s) doesn't tell the full story and uses a completely different unit as well, so it's not nearly as handy for evaluating your turrets' chance to hit.
As it is currently set up Rad/s is indeed the key number to look at... which is why I had it in my overview (even before I spent time in E-Uni.)
However as there are only 2*Pi ~ 6.28 radians in a circle and tracking speeds are (especially for larger turrets where, lets face it, tracking is a bigger issue) very slow what you get is a number that looks like this 0.00234 or 0.000157 ect.
The number is very often heavily front loaded with zeros.
However if we got the tracking in Deg/s we are now looking at having 360 degrees for the full circle or ~57 times larger numbers.
so an angular velocity of 0.00234 rad/s becomes 0.134 deg/s.. it's still decimal but I get useful info with only 3 or 4 dp rather than 5 or 6 which means the column in my overview can be narrower while giving me the same information.
Obviously having the angular velocity as a percentage of your turrets current tracking speed (assuming you have turrets fitted, otherwise angular velocity is irrelevant anyway) would be best yet because it shows you the information you actually want which is "can I actually track this target given the current status of tracking computers/enhancers/loaded scripts/skills and whether and how many tracking disruptor's your being hit with?"
EDIT: in the case of fail fits with multiple types of turrets I would opt for using the tracking speed of the slowest tracking turret as that tells you where you are with respect to your worst tracking speed and everything else will be better. I don't think that there is a nice solution for this but then you shouldn't be flying a fail fit anyway.
with a percentage readout you could get away with showing no decimal places making the column locked at 3 digits perfectly acceptable.
Colour coding the readout to make it stand out even more would be even better.
At the moment the overview is a real space hog and anything that allows it to be made smaller while giving the same info has to be a good thing.
That's what my other suggestion of using abbreviations for condensing the information was really about.
So you have for example a HAC instead of "Heavy Assault Cruiser" and APOC instead of Apocalypse and STN for station ect.
The amount of useless redundant info in the overview is staggering.
It has to be better to have
MIN-STN-Pator Tech School
or even
MIN-STN-PTS
rather than
Minmatar Station - Pator Tech School
As long as every in space item has it's abbreviation in its show info and there was an in and out of game complete list of all abbreviations (which would be created with player consultation so we can use as much as possible already used abbreviations)
then it should make reading the overview easier and faster while at the same time making it smaller.
With the option for those with the screen size to then have essentially multiple instances so that they could for example show hostiles in one and friends in another, or have one set for combat and the other for looting ect. |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 17:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP karkur wrote:First Edit: We know that people are a bit confused what is what in the HP circles around the targets. We will be looking into what we can do to make it clearer. We appreciate your feedback, and please keep it coming, but there is no need to keep repeating what many have said before you, we are aware of this confusion
I may have missed it but I haven't seen this asked so far so...
I have a question...
Sleepers don't have shields... Just armour and hull.
So what do their brackets look like? |
Soden Rah
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 19:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Major Trant wrote:Hate the new targeted icons. Much prefer the current stacked bars.
As for the stuff on the main screen:
a. Lag!
b. How do you tell what is going on behind you.
c. What happens when you zoom out in a 200 fleet battle?
d. Who the hell looks at, nevermind targets objects in the main screen? My eyes are all over the overview, the targetted icons, my ships health and cap bars, my active module icons and the fleet chat window. I only glance very briefly at the main window to get an idea how many people are on field.
I get that you are trying to give us something exotic, but I fear this is one of those great ideas in theory, which turns into an absolute disaster in the implementation. Please quietly kill this and put your resources on more important stuff.
And I'll say again LAG!
d. I can't agree more with d.
Even with two screens I have only a small area left in one screen that is not covered in windows.
The overview is THE method of knowing what the hell is going on and targeting things.
Now this sucks, and you really should be able to work without all these windows and be able to do stuff in the main screen.
But until that is fixed (which this doesn't) the thing that really needs improving is the overview.
Now don't get me wrong I like the look of these (until I see what they look like in big fleet battles.) but the overview is the piece of the UI that is really in need of some love (barring a complete roots up renovation of the entire UI) and will most impact how we actually get information on the battlefield. |
Soden Rah
Rapier Industry and Technology
Second Sun Rising
8
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 17:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mers Caster wrote:Can't be arsed to read 40 pages of comments to check if this has been suggested, sorry:
As a user of long range, poor-tracking guns, I'd love a visual way to see if a given ship's angular velocity is such that my guns will actually hit it. In combat, I pretty much just stare at my Overview trying to pick targets within range that are also below a certain angular velocity (which I have to calculate myself for targets with small signature radius). This is exactly the sort of thing a combat UI should be doing for me, and displaying in an easy to read manner!
Short version: Highlight targets with slow enough angular velocity that I can actually hit them.
Ahhh. So you want to support my ideas here Post here Post and here Post As well as my more general overview improvement suggestion here Thread |
Soden Rah
Rapier Industry and Technology
Second Sun Rising
8
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 20:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
kryjak wrote:Cant tell whats shield/armor/hull unless tagret start takindg dmg can u at least make it recognizable somehow? Seems like if i have 8 tagrets for examle targeted and they all have some type of dmg on them, how can i tell if theyre hull isnt damaged and theyre shelds or armor are restorered or opposite? By picture looks confusing but if there was no picture to compare i would assume they had armor and shield dmg not armor and hull like picture shows.
Ok, so you don't get it the first time you look at them.
But they are standardised.
They don't randomly mix up the order for each target.
Once you realise which order they go in you never get confused again unless you forget every single time.
No matter how many targets you have. |
Soden Rah
Rapier Industry and Technology
Second Sun Rising
8
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 21:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:Tippia wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:There's a biological reason that fighter jets, etc, don't use circles in their HuDs. Fun fact: fighter jets etc. use circles in their HUDs, most notably to show things like countdowns, relational data, directions, areas of effect, areas of uncertainty, and so on. The reason is because some thing are very well represented by circles and we have an easier time understanding them if represented that way (especially under stress). It's the same reason why circular dials of many kinds are still in wide use to this day: because they present the information more clearly and efficiently than other shapes would. Quote:Here's a mockup I did with my leet (aka, terrible) shop skills and manual painting.
http://imgur.com/FCaKMI think it's pretty obvious how much easier that is to read then circles. Yes: not at all. You lose all sense of relative size and of precise location of the areas filled in. The corners will create discontinuities in how much a filled-in segment is GÇ£worthGÇ¥. Uh, yeah, well, having only worked on fighter aircraft for a couple short decades, a fighter hud is nothing like Eve's gui. The circle, and it's ONLY ONE, locks the intended target and tracks it. So, comparison: FAIL. In a hud, there are far more straight lines, boxes and rectangles than there will ever be circles. Why? Those shapes are easier to pick up and distinguish, especially under info saturation and stress. The fact that the wonderful CCP crew are looking to change something for the sake of change, won't be the first time nor the last time a stupid idea has been rammed down the player's throats. Instead of screwing around with a part that absolutely ISN'T BROKEN, how about focusing your misguided efforts on fixing all the **** that is STILL broken, after MONTHS, from that useless inventory? Try that.
Ahem Thread discussing the upcomming UI changes ......
How about you learn some manners? |
Soden Rah
Rapier Industry and Technology
Second Sun Rising
8
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 23:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:For those wondering how it works on Duality if you missed all the other posts, shields is top left, armor bottom, hull right. The damage goes counterclockwise around the circle. It might just be change, but it's a really jarring process. The icons seem to take up a lot more space, even if they don't actually. The in space icons also take up a lot of space, and just become blobs when the ships are near each other. Overall, doesn't seem like an improvement.
Oh that's soo going to bug me.
It's backwards.
The thing you want to achieve is damage, you want to destroy the enemy.
Your progress towards this goal should go clockwise around the target.
I am sorry but there really needs to be a toggle for making it go around either way because counterclockwise just makes no sense to me. |
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